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Ottoman strategy 1820 scenario Edit
Jan 31 2012, 10:49 PM, Eqqman (member #286) writes:
I just thought I'd start a new thread to discuss the Ottoman Empire in the 1820 scenario. My starting point comes from a thread discussing France in the same scenario, but I don't want that thread to diverge too much from a discussion on France.
The main issue that comes up for the Ottomans (and indeed, just about every nation) is how to stop GB from getting a Council of Governors (CoG) win in 1835 before you even have time to do anything. As Russia, Austria, or Prussia, I usually solve this problem by joining in on the attack on France once it invariably gets started by GB. So I'm usually the #2 nominee in the 1835 CoG vote and there are at least enough dissenting votes to stop GB from winning.
The tip offered was to build an extra Frigate turn 1 and head off to seize the 4 northern provinces of Britain without even waiting for them to attack France. I found this easy to do and it seemed clear you can't do much more than that, as they will start to redeploy their forces in a manner to do serious damage if you don't sue for peace. After this early war was over, I then sent nearly everything back south to take out Egypt. Then, when the army was no longer needed in Egypt, I sent it back to Britain. I would wait for one of the other GPs to offer me an alliance which I knew would reactivate the war with GB (under the assumption this does less damage to my diplomatic reputation than an outright DoW). Once back at war I then snipe another province or two off Britain and make peace, to repeat the cycle.
At this stage, I have every province in Britain except Kent and London. I could probably take London but here's the odd thing- GB is still rated as 'Excellent' for Industry and 'Awesome' for Military! They possess Ireland and some lands in France, but no longer have a coastal province in France. Lands in central France keep changing hands between France, GB, and Sardinia. I have no clue how the British army in France continues to survive when it can't be reinforced and I don't know how British industry survives when they have to pay for nearly everything and use merchant marine to get it to London. They also already have Morocco claimed as a colony! I'm happy that they continue to survive since the longer they distract the other GPs the better, but it is a puzzlement.
However, while those details are interesting, they aren't overly relevant to my continued strategy. The military side seems to be going well, but I was unsure how to develop my industry when you just start the game with a Prospector and $1500. There is a large patch of forests near Istanbul, but I had thought that my capital won't industrialize so it seemed like a waste to develop that area... instead, I bought timber from Serbia and Sweden to improve relations. Albania can grow based on timber production and Epirus can grow on wool, but these areas are blocked off from early expansion by mountains. So if I can't make a rail link to these places from Istanbul, it gets very expensive as I need a port plus two rail depots to get those towns into the rail network.
What I've ended up doing is buying an Engineer and then a Miner so I could extract the gems from Egypt. I buy timber and iron from Serbia and Sweden. Nearly everything else I ship in from captured British provinces. As I slowly started to earn some money, I then got Albania and Epirus into the transport network and produced a Forester and later a Rancher to start work on the tiles in those provinces. Oh, and before that but after I had the Miner I also needed to make a Farmer to deal with my fruit shortage. I feel like I am getting near the tipping point where I won't need to worry about losing the game, but I'm wondering what the most optimal way is to develop the weak Ottoman industry at the start of the game. I'm sure I'd be in a better position now if I hadn't had so much wastage at the start. And are gems better than gold? I thought Egypt had both, but I only found gems there, so if I am only going to snipe one country at the start, maybe North Africa is a better choice?
Feb 1 2012, 03:17 AM, davidk, member #37, replies:
My initial method of winning with the Ottomans was to attack Egypt immediately, spend 12-14 years working through all of the infrastructure problems and then slowiy begin to build militarily. Britain would occasionaly win the 1835 or 1845 election. Not much you can about 1835 election, but for 1845 election build enough to get to second place. One thing I tried to reach second place was not to upgrade era1 units, but build new era2 units. This gives you a higher armament total, which gives you a higher military rating. Egypt is the natural place to attack for multiple reasons: close to your home sea, no port to build, gives port to use with Libya, control of Cairo has three available fruit available, not much rail needed to connect cotton, gems, and iron. Ottomans start with three coal and only iron, so another source of iron is good. It is a very hard start, but industrialization of Egypt, Bulgaria, Epirus, and Albania will get you going.
The early attack on GB works to get you in much bettter shape, you inherit some already working industrialization in Liverpool, and potential for getting industrialization in Yorkshire. Still takes a long time to solve infrstructure working well. I agree with most every report on how your game progressed. In my case I also sued for peace with Britain and went after Egypt, but only moved for the resumption of war when I felt I could finish them.
Gem units are worth $500 and Gold units are worth $500. [Gold is $200 - Ed]
Feb 1 2012, 06:37 AM, Eqqman replies:
I'm still working on this game at the time of this writing... in the 1835 election, GB and Austria were the nominees, and it seemed that nearly every province in the world voted for GB, including my own! Austria only had votes from its own regions and I'm quite surprised I didn't lose outright. In the 1845 election Prussia and Austria were up and each only received the votes from their own provinces.
I could have taken out GB at any war after the first, since I can keep my troops away from London and allow GB to send everything they have into France. On the turn I declare war, I move up next to London, which is emptied out. Then I take London on the turn when GB tries to recall its armies from France to deal with the sudden threat to their capital. By essentially allowing GB to live on sufferance both they and France are still in the game. I have been working on the assumption that it is to my long-term advantage to keep as many nations at war with countries other than my own for as long as possible.
I haven't seen much to be gained by doing any development in Turkey proper from the game start, as there isn't much there besides wool, and I think I would be better off just buying cotton from Africa to build relations. The captured GB provinces provide more than enough free textiles as it is.
Feb 11 2012, 12:31 AM, davidk:
The invasion of GB strategy works well and I have previously muddled through the building strategy in a loose fashion. Setting out to improve my methods, I played three times with different strategies. Comparing them at Winter 1831, the results do not differ greatly. There are some things that I used in all of the games: Build a Clipper as soon as I get a second Fabric and build a Consulate in Serbia, stop after capturing four provinces, sue for peace and attack Egypt. Game one was build an Engineer as soon as possible and start building rail toward the timber in Istanbul. Depots in the timber and connecting Bulgaria. Also buy the Consulate in Serbia. Second, was to buy the Consulate in Serbia right away and delay building the Engineer until you have the money to use him in Epirus. Third game was to also delay the Engineer build and deploy into Yorkshire and also immediately buy the Consulate in Serbia. One thing I tried for the first time was invading from the Irish Sea rather than the Norwegien Sea. Attacking Liverpool first instead of Newcastle gets you a little more goodies quicker. All of the later decisions that were later made were in favor of industrialization. All three have about the same number of labor and transport points. All games have an Engineer, Miner, and Rancher. Game one has more money and also a Forester. Game three has more industrialization goodies but only 8 merchant points, the other two games have 12. The industry ratings for the second game are less than the others. GB is doing much better in the third game compared to the first game, hard to compare the industry rating but in both games the Ottomans are second. In the third game, things look ready to grow much quicker compared to the first game. Therefore, order ranking in descending order is third, first, second.
I also like Catalonia and Spain for colonies. Morocco and North Africa have only two items to sell and Cotton is very expensive. Something I discovered for the first time. After taking my Frigates out of the invasion sea, I stopped them in Cape St. Vincent and set up two task forces as patrols. Managed to intercept and sink a Merchant in one of the games. I was hoping for a capture.
Feb 16 2012, 11:32 PM, davidk again:
As a random event, the AI sometimes sends a SL into the Irish Sea. Frigates can escape from the SL sometimes sustaining some damage, but an invading fleet is a sitting duck for being sunk. Therefore, the Irish Sea strategy should not be used, actually it offered only a very small advantage. I had never previously noticed that all AI Great Powers receive a random Consulate in the game setup for this scenario. If Serbia starts with a Consulate, then it becomes very hard for a poor country like the Ottomans to climb up into the favorite customer status. You will have to adjust your stategy to this reality. My next game will make Serbia the primary target of attack in all cases after finishing with the Britain to see how well that plays. Belgrade will work as the port and the two timber provinces can be connected. The usual concern of war with AH will not occur because of their war with GB.
I have tried out a more aggresive plan for attacks on GB. The AI will accept a peace treaty at any point, but will repeatedly declare war if it thinks you took too much from them. So I avoided taking Scotland from them and left one Regular in Newcastle until peace was achieved. My second attack had always been on the second turn, because that would be the last chance to face only three Minutemen. I waited a turn before attack to transport more Regulars because attacking Liverpool immediately would have have left Liverpool with only one fruit. A farmer is apparently developing the fruit and waiting the one turn allows me to capture a Liverpool with two available fruit. Yorkshire fell killing one Light Artillery. North Wales fell killing two Regulars and South Wales was captured facing only Minutemen. As soon a Yorkshire was captured the Engineer was built and placed to connect and have the depot next to the coal and iron. After that I moved the Engineer to South Wales because it was already a village and just needed some rail and a depot to collect iron and industrialize. Of course, just developing the iron would allow industrialization because of the port. Putting the Engineer in South Wales was a mistake, at Winter 1831, I have a huge oversupply of Steel and am just beginning to resolve the problem of lack of lumber. Instead of worrying about collecting the iron from South Wales, I should have just developed the iron which would allow industrialization and gotten to the timber much quicker from Albania. Probably not going to try that now, more anxious to try attacking Serbia rather than Egypt. Another thing I like about the five province attacks is being closer to London. Attacks from South Wales and Yorkshire get me Coventry and Somerset. From there the two forces combine to attack London. With an army of mostly Sharpshooters, I was able to take and hold London.
After you get the finances, place Consulates in Spain and/or Catalonia. Colonies in these minor nations are handy for picking up the provinces that Britain took from France. I did play one game where the Frigates captured two Indiaman in Cape St. Vincent. So that move can pay off very well, but run away if a SL does show up.
Feb 18 2012, 11:39 PM, davidk again :
Planning on attacking Serbia instead of attacking Egypt, I was able to be the sole GP with a Consulate in Sweden. After moving my army to Albania, I had to conquer both Montenegro and Herzegovina before I could place the Engineer to build a depot to connect Herzegovina. Eventually, I captured Belgrade and built the rail line into Belgrade to connect Herzegovina. Looking at my previous game, I noticed that connected was only one turn better than that game where I connected Albania via Epirus. Thinking about how I could use this strategy with various choices of a Consulate, the possibilty that there was that there might have been a competing Consulate in Sweden and that the other choices for a place to trade would be inferior to Sweden bothered me.
Revisions to the strategy. Build an Engineer as quickly as possible, to help with this, do not place a Consulate on the first turn. Move all troops to Albania on turn one and declare war on Serbia. This will make you less popular with the minor nations and a less popular trading partner. Since you are already worst with most minors, this is not a big loss. Conquer Montenegro, Herzegovina, and one other of their provinces. Move troops to Istanbul for the attack on Britain, note that your troops have up to one medal. Place Engineer in Herzegovina, just to the right of the hamlet and build a depot. When you finish with the depot, move to Yorkshire and build depot. After peace with GB bring troops back to Serbia and finish conquering. Engineer moves to depot and builds rail into Belgrade. This process gets you timber and a province connection that will industrailize. Connect Montenegro and Albania. Note that the port connection for Epirus is no longer needed. Comparing resuts with the previous try we see that this method is about six turns better than the older strategy.
Mar 7 2012, 04:59 AM, eqqman replies:
Great research, thanks! I'll have to try it out